Scientists are still trying to answer the age-old chicken-and-egg question
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NPR's Don Gonyea talks to scientist Michael Benton about his new research and tries to answer the age-old question: What came first, the chicken or the egg?
DON GONYEA, HOST:
It's a question that has been warping our brains for years. What came first: the chicken or the egg? A team of scientists from the University of Bristol in England believe they have cracked the code. One of these researchers is Michael Benton. He is a professor at the university's School of Earth Sciences and is now joining us. Welcome to the show.
MICHAEL BENTON: Thank you very much.
GONYEA: Mild apologies for the pun there. You've heard them all, I'm sure.
BENTON: Not at all.
GONYEA: We'd all like to know. Was it the chicken or the egg? What have you found?
BENTON: Yes, the quick answer is the egg, because the chicken is just one of many birds. And of course, as we know, all birds lay an egg with a hard shell. So if you're familiar with your breakfast egg, it's pretty much the same for all birds. And so it is probably the egg laid long ago by the very first bird. So a quick answer is that the egg comes first. However, our research shows that if you go deeper in time, this is actually not the whole story.
GONYEA: Okay. However, let's dive into the whole story. I mean, your first reaction was the egg, but then you said, wait a minute.
BENTON: Yeah.
GONYEA: What is it, wait a minute?
BENTON: Many listeners may be aware that we know something about dinosaur eggs. There are many nests containing football-sized eggs. But a few years ago, some colleagues pointed out that the first dinosaurs most likely produced eggs with parchment shells. These are soft-shelled eggs. And the secret is something that has been known to lizard lovers for a long time, namely that many of them have the ability to keep the embryos inside. So the mother holds the cubs and releases them at a certain time. This is called extended embryo retention, EER. What we discovered is that the trait of long-term embryo retention goes all the way back to the beginning of reptiles. So it wasn't the hard-shelled egg. What they did was extended embryo retention.
GONYEA: So help me put this in the simplest terms possible. We know hard eggs. We even know eggs with a softer shell, which looks more like a membrane. But you're saying that these eggs weren't always there as part of birth or as part of protection….
BENTON: Yeah.
GONYEA: ...of the embryo. So they have evolved too.
BENTON: So I think the easiest way to contrast that is that the standard textbook story is that the first reptile was wildly successful because it laid a hard-shelled egg, like a chicken egg, and it functioned as a private pond. This is a phrase people often used, a private pond, as opposed to the amphibians that were there before. We think of frogs and salamanders. They lay their eggs in water. They tend to leave them and the young grow up like little fish in the water. And then they finally leave. Therefore, amphibians must stay close to water. So the entire history of the evolution of life took place in the Carboniferous period, 300 million years ago. Some of the first reptiles gained this ability to escape from the water and conquer the entire landscape. Wrong. It wasn't the private pond. It was the prolonged embryo retention and live birth. It seems to be the primitive state of reptiles.
GONYEA: Why are these results important?
BENTON: I think it's important because the origins of reptiles and the later origins of dinosaurs, birds and mammals really changed the world. You know, we look across the landscape and everywhere you look you see birds and mammals. And you know, somehow it's not just us saying we're important. That is why we are aware of these beings.
GONYEA: Do you believe the old expression: which came first, the chicken or the egg? - do you want to leave? It feels like one of those things that lasts.
BENTON: No, I don't think so. It's a classic pub quiz question. So whether that is why the chicken crossed the road, I have no idea. But I expect people will continue to ask and answer it in different ways.
GONYEA: That was my next question, by the way (laughter).
BENTON: That's one, I can't answer it.
GONYEA: Okay. Michael Benton is a professor at the School of Earth Sciences at the University of Bristol. Thanks for joining us and explaining all this.
BENTON: Thank you very much.
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